Mindrolling – Raghu Markus – Ep. 424 – The Zen of Therapy w/ Dr. Mark Epstein

Dr. Mark Epstein returns with Raghu to discuss the Zen of Therapy—merging eastern spirituality & western psychology—in a conversation spanning Ram Dass, India, & the Self.

Dr. Mark Epstein is an author and psychotherapist who has paved the way for the brimming modern cross-section of Western psychology with Buddhist philosophy, writing a number of defining books including the new, The Zen of Therapy: Uncovering a Hidden Kindness in Life. Learn more at MarkEpsteinMD.com.

The Zen of Therapy

Welcoming, author, psychotherapist, and longtime friend, Dr. Mark Epstein, back to the Mindrolling podcast; Raghu invites him to share the inspiration behind his timely new book, The Zen of Therapy: Uncovering a Hidden Kindness in Life. Through this lens, Mark opens up about the deep beneficial influence his Eastern, Buddhist, mindfulness, meditation path has had on his Western, rational, scientific career as a therapist.

“What I would try to do, would be to write down the details as much as I could recollect them, of one psychotherapy session that I had had that week, where possibly the spiritual influence, or the Buddhist influence, or the meditation influence on my process, on my thinking, was influencing the way that the session unfolded.” – Dr. Mark Epstein

For more Raghu & Dr. Mark Epstein talking fear, impermanence, and surrender, tune to Ep. 281 of Mindrolling

Ram Dass, Spiritual Friend, Therapy, & India (9:30)

Sharing an early conversation between Buddha and his attendant Ananda pointing to Ram Dass’ idea that “We are all walking each other home,” Raghu and Mark reflect on the concept of a Kalyāṇa-mittatā – Buddhism’s notion of an admirable spiritual friend. From here, they dive into Mark’s interesting science-meets-spirituality relationship with Dr. Herbert Benson—an association that inadvertently brought Mark to India to Neem Karoli Baba’s Vrindavan ashram with Krishna Das & KC Tewari.

“I tried to talk about this concept of a spiritual friend – Kalyāṇa-mittatā – that comes out of Buddhism, and imaging a therapist could actually be a spiritual friend. Which is something I always felt from Ram Dass… I looked up to him, he was a father figure, therapist figure, spiritual figure, but really a spiritual friend. So I think in some way I’ve been trying to embody that for my own patients.” – Dr. Mark Epstein

Dr. Mark Epstein joins Ethan Nichtern for a conversation on Buddhism and psychology, on Ep. 17 of The Road Home

The Self & Becoming Nobody // Anger & Kindness (36:00)

Contemplating Ram Dass’ concept of “become nobody,” Raghu invites Mark to share on the nuances of “self” and “emptiness.” Mark offers an answer he overheard from Dr. Robert Thurman: “The problem isn’t that you think you’re real; it’s that you think you’re really real!” Bringing the podcast home, they discuss overcoming clinging and anger by inhabiting compassion and kindness.

“Think about how we rail out at this aggression that is going on worldwide—and certainly the polarization-aggression in this country seems to be at it’s peak—and then think about how you talk to yourself, and the way in which one talks to oneself, and the aggression there is extraordinary. Doesn’t that point to the fact that we do need to deal with this within ourselves if we think we are going to help anything around us?” – Raghu Markus

Sharon Salzberg, Dr. Bob Thurman, & Dr. Mark Epstein meditate on selflessness, on Ep. 107of the Metta Hour

      

Art via Jorm S