Sharon Salzberg – Metta Hour – Ep. 142 – Real Change Series: Devon and Craig Hase

For episode 142 of the Metta Hour, Sharon speaks with mindfulness and meditation teachers Devon and Craig Hase.

For episode 142 of the Metta Hour, Sharon speaks with mindfulness and meditation teachers Devon and Craig Hase.

Devon has been committed to meditation since 2000, spending years in retreat in the Insight and Vajrayana traditions, and has been mentored by Joseph Goldstein, Tara Brach, Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche. Craig began intensive meditation training in 1994, living in a Zen monastery for six years before getting his Ph.D. in counseling psychology. Together they are teachers and mentors in the spiritual community, and they just released their new book, How Not To Be A Hot Mess. You can find about more their offerings at

This is episode fifteen of the Real Change Podcast series. In this episode, Devon and Craig examine the ways that the practices of mindfulness can make it through the difficulties we face day-to-day. They speak with Sharon about some of the themes from “Real Change” and how we can embody our best selves through the practices of mindfulness and meditation. The episode finishes with four-minute breath meditation guided by Sharon to close the conversation.

Notes on Not Being a Hot Mess

Sharon welcomes Devon and Craig and asks about their book, How Not to Be a Hot Mess. They discuss how life these days is a bit of a dumpster fire, but we can survive through mindfulness and connecting with our moral principles. Devon and Craig share their modern take on the five precepts of Buddhism. 

“You need to know what you’re about. You need to have a real firm sense of what matters to you and be able to root yourself in those kinds of personal ethics or values, and then live from that place.” – Craig Hase

Raw Authenticity (20:46)

The conversation turns to Right Speech and how Craig went through a period where he felt raw authenticity was the most important part of speech. Devon talks about working with anger and how it has the potential for powerful action, but Sharon cautions that anger is a double-edged sword. 

“Dharma practice does allow for a deeper level of authenticity. The more one practices, I think the more human one gets.” – Devon Hase

RamDev explores anger and the way of Tantra on Healing at the Edge Ep. 53 
Good Qualities (43:43)

Sharon asks for the story of how Devon and Craig met. They talk about how they each became interested in meditation practice and the books that inspired them, including Insight Meditation and When Things Fall Apart. Devon ends the show with a meditation centered on connecting to the good qualities that already exist within ourselves.

“From this place, this sense of warm attention, of embodied presence, I just invite you to look at your own good qualities. So often we spend our time looking at what’s wrong with us, or what we need to somehow improve or fix. But in this practice, we need just a gentle inclination towards what’s already here.” – Devon Hase

This is the first episode of the Real Change Podcast series. In this conversation, Joshin and Sharon discuss some of the themes from her new book, Real Change, exploring the ways that meditation practice can inform social action. They discuss working with anger, pathological altruism, finding long term resilience and joy in activism, and working to find balance. To close the conversation, Joshin leads a ten-minute meditation practice on equanimity.


Photo via Devon and Craig Hase